Finesse is under rated especially by many of the sport crowd and many younger people in general. There are many times that it is more advantageous to finesse a move and stay in a better position for a second or third technique. Punching or kicking is not always the best technique to chose either.
Ryan here is a prime example of inexperience and common misconceptions filling the "cup" instead of making room for real knowledge.
As part of what you would define as younger generation... I thought this was always the case for the untrained?
The media pumps these false information that there are levels of techniques and higher ones are the stronger ones that the character will rely on because it's so much better than others. They also make it seem like a character will think out a technique before engaging or even while engaging like a slow game of chess(which is actually true I suppose when you get into ground fighting). A training is seem as method to condition oneself only rather than building muscle memory. And it goes on and on.
Hell I know better and I still find myself wishing for that one ultimate technique when I watch certain shows. Before you call it childish though, there has been a plenty people in the past who looked for "the perfect thrust". An unstoppable and most efficient attack with a sword that can't fail. So I don't think it's only a modern generational trap.
I find it remarkable that people actually even believe there is a "better" or "stronger" technique when all have their use, function and importance. That same kind of thinking is the very same that have kids believing certain teachings and principles in the martial arts are uselessly and unnecessarily taught, making a need for "changing" or "altering" a style to make it all work. Idiotic.
Its nothing new Pugpaws... Think back to when you were young, we were and some still are like it. It is just immaturity and a lack of knowledge.
It has and will always happen. We teach our children from a young age to have their own opinion but with human kind your opinion is often a reflection of society. For example lets look at morbid obesity, who is to say that is not beautiful.. society does... but in a few generations that opinion can change.
As the world has gone into MMA mode now society sees other martial arts as inferior and that is just how public opinion is because that is how the UFC has led people to believe. Just the way the Gracies led the world to believe their style was the best in the world.... opinions change when the bubble bursts.
Now after teaching children to have and speak their mind then we tell them they are wrong for doing so and then we wonder why they argue with us?? they argue because this is what we have taught them and it is getting worse with each generation because kids are allowed access to more people with society opinions via the internet and TV and this just makes people more like sheep (Riki3 would love this). Of course they are wrong but only maturity and knowledge will fix this
AND yes they are like this with everything in life. - Blame TV, Internet, media, governments.
Obviously haymakers are very powerful but idiotic to use, however more powerful punches in general are better especially in a street fight. Hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts are what do the damage. The real world is actually martial artists misunderstanding that they think they can fight. Fancy kicks and impractical moves only look good in practice and movies. A real boxer or mma fighter in a street fight would absolutely wipe the floor with martial artists, especially the stupid ones like taekwondo and tai chi.
Several great answers already
Yes it notice that as well. They think power comes from strength, then they get annoyed when you tell them otherwise.
It's the inpatients of the youth and all the media crap they believe.
They fail to ask these questions
you can't strike the throat neck or back of the head neck WHY
You can't make direct kicks( SIDE KICK FRONT KICK INVERTED STOMP KICK ETC) to any part of the body below the waist including the legs knees etc WHY
No fish hooking WHY
No grabbing the fingers WHY
Use of elbows depends on the rules and are restricted even when allowed (no descending elbows to collar bone top of the head back of the neck) WHY
If they can honestly answer any of these questions without making excuses they will understand they can be as vulnerable as anyone else .Dojo operators must teach these methods if not they are short changing their students .
Size and strength do not matter, as long as you have technique and mindset.
"UFC fights and such show fighters as big tough muscley guys."
Objection. "Big"? Hardly. The majority of fighters, unsurprisingly, fall within the Bell curve of size for the population: lightweights (155lbs limit) and welterweights (170lbs limit) are the most common fighters. "Tough"? Undoubtedly. You need to be tough if you fight for a living. "Muscley"? Not really. Fit, sure (and why, for some reason, is being in peak physical condition frowned upon by some in the martial arts community?) but hardly any of them could be mistaken for body builders. Most are quite lean. Large muscles burn up oxygen faster. Just ask Bob Sapp.
Anyway, aside from the fact that "always" is an absolute, I would say I'm a bit confused as to why such a belief is "mistaken". All things being equal, if you want to end a fight as quickly as possible, if you hit the same target with a punch with a force of 7 units, or hit it with a force of 10 units, the latter will almost certainly do more damage and end the fight faster. As long as the strike follows certain biomechanical principles in order to transfer the most energy possible to the target without leaving themselves open, for practical purposes, why NOT hit something with the maximum power available?
In fact (and contrary to some of the statements I've seen here) it wasn't until I started getting into competitive full-contact striking formats that I started to value lighter strikes: strategically, when facing a well-trained opponent who knows in advance that there's a fight, lighter strikes can be used for opening up other areas to attack, to measure distance without committing weight to a strike, etc. When I came up through classic martial arts prior to that, it was all about ikken hissatsu or related ideas: end the fight quickly with as few strikes as possible. That NECESSITATES hitting hard. If your strikes only gently massage the muscles and organs of an opponent, you're not really deterring them from attacking.
Then again, could be we're talking about different things here. In a competitive context, in order to conserve energy and not over-extend myself, most shots I'm throwing are going to be about 60-80% power, until/unless I have a clear line of attack for something I can throw as hard as I can. Take Ernesto Hoost's leg kicks, which were usually preceded by a flurry of punches. It the punches were meant to set up the big shot and keep the opponent off-balance, and while they were hard, they weren't subject to an exaggerated load-up. In THAT circumstance, the "hardest" blows aren't being thrown until the end of a combination (the kick). But then again, loading up big on the punches violates proper body mechanics anyway.
Why don't you give an example of what you're talking about?
Yes I see this here and in many other areas of life. This is especially tue of sports. But also in martial arts they have the bekleif thet you must be bigger and or stronger in order to have success.
This is why most bouncers today are bug guys. People assume that because they are big they can hurt you. Many of the big guys hired as bouncers can't fight and wond stand a chance until help comes. It's a good thing they have numbers.
I remember some years ago there was this club not too far from me. I used to visit the club and I did some work for them. The owner talked about this one bouncer they had. He was a big guy. He supposedly also had a black belt in something. But he was worthless. The smallest guy would toss him around. I knew the owner was pretty much going to let him go if he took another beating when something broke out there. I never saw any problems arise when I was there. But I can imagine they saw their fair share of problems in that area. Samarai Warrior on here may even know the club and owners. Turns out he knew a lot more people in that area than I did. The owners were from Kansans but the club was in Brooklyn, Il.
It is amazing that most people think the toughest dog is a small pit bull and will say it is not the size of the dog in a fight, but it is the size of the fight in a dog. But don't understand this to be true in other areas.
Good technique will override size.
Anyone that has been active here will quickly see a trend that the younger guys have set in concrete in their minds. That is the mistaken belief that the most powerful, kick, punch, ...etc is the best and always better than less powerful ones. Have you seen this misunderstanding of the real world too?
I have also noticed and Cecil summed it up very well and put it beautifully. I really think we need to come together more. Of course sports fighting has something of value. Consider the source. Totally denying this is denying your own root as a traditionalist too.
I too think media does it's share to contribute to this kind of thinking but the real eye opener came when I took in a young student. He was in first grade, was challenged and needed something to learn better focus. He did really good for a couple of years and then I noticed him going down hill pretty fast. I started digging. Where I was teaching him that mediocre was not good enough and that he had to give it all every time, school was giving him excuses. It's OK if you can't do this. Mediocre or less was acceptable as long as it looked like he did it. A half@$$ed try was rewarded without regard that the kid really could give so much more with some effort. As human nature is lazy the kid soon settled in the much more comfortable environment of doing less and still getting by. Of course this attitude affects martial arts where precision in real techniques is of the utmost importance. Ground and pound takes no precision. That's while effective, I feel it is not a martial art. I think the trend you are noticing is far from being done. While it affects martial arts and we see this in smaller categories, think of how this will affect us on a larger scale as a society down the road. It's scary. If you can keep people vulnerable, not just in martial arts, without them knowing how vulnerable they really are you will control the people and they will not know it. It is the ultimate control if we don't wake up. ...and you thought they got rid of slavery.
I think we need to teach children not necessarily the martial arts techniques to hurt others but the concepts of martial arts and the thinking and actions of a martial artist that go beyond the skill of hitting hard. Schools have their agenda which is not for the benefit of our future and Moms and Dads are kept occupied by having to work for two incomes because one just does not make ends meet anymore so they leave their kids in the hands of the schools and the media to teach.
Looks like a lot of interesting answers here but due to time constraints I'll have to check back later.
But referring to your question. I thought this was a common thing in general with younger people and I'm only 26. This is generally the mindset of an inexperienced individual who knows only how to rely on power.....correction, strength. This works somewhat effectively against other inexperienced individuals but against an experience practitioner they will often come up completely flat.
The "power" of any technique, be it a grapple, a strike, or other is in it's effectiveness. Strength plays a small role. As a bouncer for years, I constantly had to manhandle men both larger and stronger than I. Yet was able to do that easily enough by the power of good technique and application of that technique.
These new folk seem to think protection is like a fight. You "square off", and trade blows. That is far from the reality of the situation in protection.
I'm not so much "active" on here anymore, but of course I have seen this.
Probably one of the reasons I am not on here so much anymore. We have gotten an influx of newbies.
Some who are beneficial and some who are not.
Nothing is more annoying when some kid asks a question regarding ___________ and you spend the time to answer, and yet, suddenly, the kid doesn't like your FACTUAL answer bc it goes against his/her beliefs. You are supposed to say what they want to hear.
And our friend Cecil already covered some good pointers too. Especially "the person with the most powerful body is going to win in a real fight, no matter what".
I am a short guy at 5ft 6 140 lbs. I've been judged my entire life. Tell someone "I do martial arts" they are surprised or don't believe it. It's hilarious how people think. "You don't look like a martial artist", well looks are deceiving.
EX: Most people would look at Bruce Lee in a shirt and think: "Skinny lil guy".
Without his shirt: "Holy $#!t he's ripped"!
And that also goes to the myth that the strongest guy will win, or even deeper:
Big muscles = Physical Fitness.
I have seen that disproven time and time again. Big muscle guys with even bigger egos, thinking they are super fit just bc they lift a-lot of weight. Yet, they aren't even close to being truly fit, and can't perform some of the simplest of exercises.
I remember at a ROTC Ranger Comp, we had the PT test. Before hand we noticed two rather muscular guys talking about how they were gonna dominate in pushups etc. Long story short, we had one of our female cadets pop out 60 pushups in 2 minutes while those kids barely did 40. And overhearing her tell me how well she did said "Well that's just bc you're lightweight"...
She turned to them smiled and said "But you are such big, strong, men, surely you should be able to do more than me".
I mean really. Stereotyping and false thinking runs deep. And Cecil summed it up beautifully with this marvelous quote:
"The real world is you not being able to handle a problem because your assumptions cloud your perception of reality".
I suppose it's just the younger generation and lack of maturity. They believe what they want to believe, and hear what they want to hear. It's a shame.
Perhaps one day they will mature and see the error of their ways.
Take care Pugpaws.
The media has a lot to do with it. UFC fights and such show fighters as big tough muscley guys. People start to think this is what a real fighter looks like.
Absolutely. In fact I'll take it further: people assume that the person with the most powerful body is going to win in a real fight, no matter what. Or, people assume that style A always beats style B, regardless of the individuals involved.
The real world is not just martial artists thinking they can fight, it s also combat sport practitioners thinking that they can beat all traditional martial artists. Why don't some combat sport people believe that yes, you probably would get maimed, crippled or killed if a match were truly no holds barred and allowed biting, eye gouging and small joint manipulation? And it is traditional martial artists thinking that there is no value in combat sport. Why is it so hard to see that there is value in all of it? You don't need to be a national champion, but what is wrong with doing at least one tournament in your lifetime?
The real world is also more athletic people thinking they can always beat up less athletic people, younger people thinking they can always beat up older people, men thinking they can always beat a woman just because she is a woman, not because she is not a fighter. No matter how many times I post here my stories about the small, the old, the female, beating up men who are still in their prime, a boxer actually handling multiple opponents, Taekwondo people being up attackers, we still get the same assumptions over and over and over.
The real world is people doing ground and pound in real life without realizing they can get jumped by a bystander, tazed by the person on the ground, or shot. It is also grapplers typically losing to strikers because the striker won't let them get close enough to grapple. And it is a fat kid doing a Judo throw on a bully because the bully ASSUMED that Fat Quiet Guy could not fight.
The real world is you not being able to handle a problem because your assumptions cloud your perception of reality.
Maybe it really is a trend that the younger guys have set in concrete in their minds. Well guess what younger guys, the older you get, the more you'll change your perceptions.
Yes I have and several times I have mentioned in this forum "feathering your punches" and some of the reasons why a person who is throwing punches and kicks might instead take some power off of them rather than trying to throw them as hard as they can. Not only does this apply to punching and kicking but the idea of using power and strength and applying it and curtailing that also applies to some wrestling, grappling, and jujitsu techniques.
Oftentimes though many don't have a good understanding of the above nor develop and understand the idea behind "feathering" and "touch" and how these apply to them being successful in executing something. They instead misapply too much power or overly rely on power and strength, or waste it and in doing so it often makes them less effective rather than more effective.
In closing I have mentioned before the situation for instance where I want do real sustained damage to them. In that kind of situation if I hit or kick them as hard as I can then they won't always be in range for any techniques and combinations after that first shot lands. In a situation like the above I might take some power off that initial shot or combination so that they are still within range for me to then follow up and deliver a stronger, more effective shot or combination and do more damage. Some situations require this approach more than others but if your understanding of things is not there then you probably are going to fall victim to thinking that everything has to be executed with maximum speed and power when that actually can work against you and make you ineffective at times rather than more effective.
Why do all colored belts invaribly lead off with a roundhouse kick?
I believe it all comes down to experience, or a lack thereof. Ryan here, is a perfect example.
